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Elementary questions about electronics
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RS485 Why the limit of 32?
I've implemented a few different serial protocols, but never set up an RS485 network. I have several home automation do-dads that need to talk to each other from different parts of the house. I'm thinking of implementing a half-duplex 485 bus on an unused pair of the telephone cabling. Any non-obvious gotchas? I've noticed that many transceivers specify a maximum of 32 nodes on the
network. Since they are tri-stateable, why is there a limit? Is it really
just a somewhat arbitrary number based upon bus-loading? Is there some
overlying comm protocol that I'm supposed to implement that can only address
32 hosts? FWICT, it looks like I need only to fiddle with the enable lines
and send/receive ordinary serial data (of my own format) to the transceiver.
Am I missing something important here?
In article <13496dh2nts5 @news.supernews.com>, "Anthony Fremont" <spam- @nowhere.com> wrote: >I've noticed that many transceivers specify a maximum of 32 nodes on the >network. Since they are tri-stateable, why is there a limit? Is it really >just a somewhat arbitrary number based upon bus-loading? Is there some >overlying comm protocol that I'm supposed to implement that can only address >32 hosts? FWICT, it looks like I need only to fiddle with the enable lines >and send/receive ordinary serial data (of my own format) to the transceiver. >Am I missing something important here? Just guessing, but perhaps the address bus is only five bits wide? --
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
-----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
"Anthony Fremont" <spam-@nowhere.com> schreef in bericht
news:13496dh2nts5bd3@news.supernews.com...
> I've implemented a few different serial protocols, but never set up an > RS485 network. I have several home automation do-dads that need to talk > to each other from different parts of the house. I'm thinking of > implementing a half-duplex 485 bus on an unused pair of the telephone > cabling. Any non-obvious gotchas? > I've noticed that many transceivers specify a maximum of 32 nodes on the
> network. Since they are tri-stateable, why is there a limit? Is it
> really just a somewhat arbitrary number based upon bus-loading? Is there
> some overlying comm protocol that I'm supposed to implement that can only
> address 32 hosts? FWICT, it looks like I need only to fiddle with the
> enable lines and send/receive ordinary serial data (of my own format) to
> the transceiver. Am I missing something important here?
Bus load is a part of the answer. As receivers should have an impedance >=12k, the 32 nodes bring the bus load 12/32~375 Ohm. The transmitters add no load to the bus as they are either sending or tri-stated. There's much more about RS485. Just Google for "RS485 specifications". petrus bitbyter
-----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
In article <13496dh2nts5 @news.supernews.com>, spam- @nowhere.com says...
> I've implemented a few different serial protocols, but never set up an RS485 > network. I have several home automation do-dads that need to talk to each > other from different parts of the house. I'm thinking of implementing a > half-duplex 485 bus on an unused pair of the telephone cabling. Any > non-obvious gotchas? > I've noticed that many transceivers specify a maximum of 32 nodes on the
> network. Since they are tri-stateable, why is there a limit? Is it really
> just a somewhat arbitrary number based upon bus-loading? Is there some
> overlying comm protocol that I'm supposed to implement that can only address
> 32 hosts? FWICT, it looks like I need only to fiddle with the enable lines
> and send/receive ordinary serial data (of my own format) to the transceiver.
> Am I missing something important here?
It is due to the reciever bus loading. There are fraction load parts that allow more recievers on the bus. Maxim, National, Sipex, and others have 1/8 load recievers allowing 256 nodes. Jim
-----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
In article <xB11i.2670$zj3. @newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>, spamb @milmac.com says... > In article <13496dh2nts5 @news.supernews.com>, "Anthony Fremont" > <spam- @nowhere.com> wrote: > >I've noticed that many transceivers specify a maximum of 32 nodes on the
> >network. Since they are tri-stateable, why is there a limit? Is it really
> >just a somewhat arbitrary number based upon bus-loading? Is there some
> >overlying comm protocol that I'm supposed to implement that can only address
> >32 hosts? FWICT, it looks like I need only to fiddle with the enable lines
> >and send/receive ordinary serial data (of my own format) to the transceiver.
> >Am I missing something important here?
> Just guessing, but perhaps the address bus is only five bits wide?
RS485 is an electrical spec, not a network spec. There is no address there that is part of the receiver/transmitter hardware. Jim
-----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
Anthony Fremont wrote: > I've implemented a few different serial protocols, but never set up an RS485 > network. I have several home automation do-dads that need to talk to each > other from different parts of the house. I'm thinking of implementing a > half-duplex 485 bus on an unused pair of the telephone cabling. Any > non-obvious gotchas? > I've noticed that many transceivers specify a maximum of 32 nodes on the
> network. Since they are tri-stateable, why is there a limit? Is it really
> just a somewhat arbitrary number based upon bus-loading? Is there some
> overlying comm protocol that I'm supposed to implement that can only address
> 32 hosts? FWICT, it looks like I need only to fiddle with the enable lines
> and send/receive ordinary serial data (of my own format) to the transceiver.
> Am I missing something important here?
32 is just a round number derived from existing equipment that due to load on the pairs and driving abilities of the receivers pulling up the load.. In may devices you get that operate on 485 for computer interface
normally use some form of ASCII or base line fixed length data streams
that uses the first part as the device ID.
Modbus comes to mind.
The Device ID's is just part of the message/data that the device
operates on. ALl device's actually see all data that is taking place
on the bus.
--
"I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
Real Programmers Do things like this.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5
-----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
petrus bitbyter wrote: > "Anthony Fremont" >> I've noticed that many transceivers specify a maximum of 32 nodes on >> the network. Since they are tri-stateable, why is there a limit? Is it >> really just a somewhat arbitrary number based upon >> bus-loading? Is there some overlying comm protocol that I'm >> supposed to implement that can only address 32 hosts? FWICT, it >> looks like I need only to fiddle with the enable lines and >> send/receive ordinary serial data (of my own format) to the >> transceiver. Am I missing something important here? > Bus load is a part of the answer. As receivers should have an
> impedance >=12k, the 32 nodes bring the bus load 12/32~375 Ohm. The
> transmitters add no load to the bus as they are either sending or
> tri-stated. There's
> much more about RS485. Just Google for "RS485 specifications".
Ok, thanks for the reply. :-) I've found some info on implementng MODBUS. Doesn't seem terribly hard, but I don't think I'll really need even that much sophistication. I'll likely have a master that simply polls the remote slaves. Collisions should be quite infrequent if slaves only speak when spoken to. Thanks again. :-) -----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
James Beck wrote:
> It is due to the reciever bus loading.
> There are fraction load parts that allow more recievers on the bus.
> Maxim, National, Sipex, and others have 1/8 load recievers allowing
> 256 nodes.
I saw some transceivers out there that allowed for man more than 32 nodes. Do you have any favorite cheapy parts? Thanks :-)
-----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
On May 11, 12:28 pm, "Anthony Fremont" <spam- @nowhere.com> wrote: > I've implemented a few different serial protocols, but never set up an RS485 > network. I have several home automation do-dads that need to talk to each > other from different parts of the house. I'm thinking of implementing a > half-duplex 485 bus on an unused pair of the telephone cabling. Any > non-obvious gotchas? > I've noticed that many transceivers specify a maximum of 32 nodes on the
> network. Since they are tri-stateable, why is there a limit? Is it really
> just a somewhat arbitrary number based upon bus-loading? Is there some
> overlying comm protocol that I'm supposed to implement that can only address
> 32 hosts? FWICT, it looks like I need only to fiddle with the enable lines
> and send/receive ordinary serial data (of my own format) to the transceiver.
> Am I missing something important here?
These page may help answer some of your questions; http://www.interfacebus.com/Design_Connector_RS485.html Yes you can increase the devices above 32.....
http://www.interfacebus.com/
-----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
Jamie wrote:
> 32 is just a round number derived from existing equipment that due to
> load on the pairs and driving abilities of the receivers pulling up
> the load..
That's what I was figuring. > In may devices you get that operate on 485 for computer interface > normally use some form of ASCII or base line fixed length data streams > that uses the first part as the device ID. > Modbus comes to mind.
I probably won't have a need to connect anything that already implements a protocol, but it might be a good idea (and the experience wouldn't hurt) to go ahead and implement something like Modbus. > The Device ID's is just part of the message/data that the device
> operates on. ALl device's actually see all data that is taking place
> on the bus.
Yep, that certainly confirms my suspicions. Seems too easy actually. ;-) -----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
In article <134bi7j95d1l @news.supernews.com>, spam- @nowhere.com says... > James Beck wrote: > > It is due to the reciever bus loading.
> > There are fraction load parts that allow more recievers on the bus.
> > Maxim, National, Sipex, and others have 1/8 load recievers allowing
> > 256 nodes.
> I saw some transceivers out there that allowed for man more than 32 nodes.
> Do you have any favorite cheapy parts?
> Thanks :-)
My favorite (read the most rugged) is the Maxim stuff. We use a full duplex system, so the MAX3080 series is what I like. The down side is that Maxim is notoriously slow getting production parts in the channel. I have had 12 weeks lead times (many times). We just buy enough at one whack to make it to the next production run, or we use a Linear Tech part that works pretty good too. A lot of times you can find a distributor that carries the Maxim parts in stock, but you will pay their mark up too. Jim
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