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Elementary questions about electronics
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Using resistor to slow down flashing turn signal on my bike
I'm replacing the front turn signals on my motorbike with LEDs. The LED light is rated at 0.4w at 12 volts, and the globe it is replacing is 21w. When I connect the new LED light to the original wiring, the turn
signals (on the dash, front LED and back globe) all flash too fast. I
am wanting to slow these down and was hoping someone could provide
some advice on what type of resistor I need to apply to the circuit to
increase the resistance to the same as the original 21w globe.
I'm not sure if I've provided enough information for this calculation,
so if more is needed, please let me know.
Thanks
Matt
<bair @gmail.com> wrote in message ...
> I'm replacing the front turn signals on my motorbike with LEDs. The > LED light is rated at 0.4w at 12 volts, and the globe it is replacing > is 21w. > When I connect the new LED light to the original wiring, the turn
> signals (on the dash, front LED and back globe) all flash too fast. I
> am wanting to slow these down and was hoping someone could provide
> some advice on what type of resistor I need to apply to the circuit to
> increase the resistance to the same as the original 21w globe.
> I'm not sure if I've provided enough information for this calculation,
> so if more is needed, please let me know.
> Thanks
> Matt
Matt, Since power = volts * volts / resistance then resistance = volts * volts /
power, so
R = 12V * 12V / 20.6W (note that 20.6W = 21W - 0.4W)
R = 7 ohms
You can probably get away with using a resistor rated at only 10W since the
blink rate will make the effective power closer to only 10 watts (or so).
Typically, you don't want to run a resistor at its max power rating, but in
this case it's not a critical application, and if you select a wirewound
resistor it will (most likely) never fail even at its rated power. Also,
you'll probably never exceed its rated max temperature either.
Having said all that, it seems like a real waste of power just to be able to
use LED lamps. I've resisted putting these types of lamps on my bikes'
blinkers because it seems to defeat the advantage of using LEDs.
Someone must have come up with a flasher replacement that works properly
with the lighter load drawn by LEDs. Have you looked for this type of device
(I haven't). Let us know if you find anything.
Bob
-----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
<bair @gmail.com> wrote in message ... > I'm replacing the front turn signals on my motorbike with LEDs. The > LED light is rated at 0.4w at 12 volts, and the globe it is replacing > is 21w. > When I connect the new LED light to the original wiring, the turn
> signals (on the dash, front LED and back globe) all flash too fast. I
> am wanting to slow these down and was hoping someone could provide
> some advice on what type of resistor I need to apply to the circuit to
> increase the resistance to the same as the original 21w globe.
> I'm not sure if I've provided enough information for this calculation,
> so if more is needed, please let me know.
Assuming you mean 2 globes at 21 watts each, one forward facing, the second rearward. Lets round that down to 40 watts. Power in watts is volts x current
40W/12V= 3.33A
The LED load is insignificant at 33mA so I am ignoring it.
Voltage is resistance x current
12V/3.33A= 3.6 ohms but it will have to be quite a resistor at 40 watts
plus a safety
margin! Since they are operating intermittently, you can get by with a some
what
lower rating however I think you'll do better to find the minimum load at
which the
flasher operates or replace the flasher with an electronic version.
-----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
Bob/Lord Garth, Thanks for your replies!
I've spoken to the local auto electrician and he has advised me that a
resistor will not work in this situation. Since the flasher cans
require power usage to create/break the circuit (creating the flash),
using a resistor will only reduce the power usage even more and
therefore speed up the flash even more. I hadn't thought of it this
way previously but it seems to make sense. He has advised me to
replace the flasher can with an electronic one, and this should
apparently solve any problems.
I'll let you know how it goes!
Cheers
Matt
-----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
What the electrician is saying is true if you were to put the resistor in series with the LED pack. What I think you need to do is to put a resitor in parallel with the LED
pack.
The resistor will look like a bulb as far as the flasher is concerned so the
flasher will work normally.
The LED pack in parallel will simple light whenever the resistor is
switched.
Resistance of bulb is given by : POWER = Volt x Volt / Resistance
So is 0.15 ohms.
So if you were to put a 0.15W resistor (rated at 21W) in parallel with the
LED they I beleive the LEDs will flash normally.
Note trying to keep simple - I know I have considered the parallel
resistance but in reality the power in resistor (21W) is so big compared
with the LED (0.4W) that it makes little difference to the calculation.
Obviously, this is a waste of power (21W rather than 0.4W) but without
changing the flasher circuit I can't see how you can avoid this. Besides
the indicators are not on for long.
Also, 21W is the power when the flasher is on. Because it actually, flashes
on and off you may be able to get away with a lower rated resistor.
Resistor could be something like this
http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/Components+&+Spares/Wirewound/WELWYN/WH50+...
This is a 0.1 ohm but should work okay.
Cheers,
Nigel
<bair @gmail.com> wrote in message ...
> Bob/Lord Garth, > Thanks for your replies!
> I've spoken to the local auto electrician and he has advised me that a
> resistor will not work in this situation. Since the flasher cans
> require power usage to create/break the circuit (creating the flash),
> using a resistor will only reduce the power usage even more and
> therefore speed up the flash even more. I hadn't thought of it this
> way previously but it seems to make sense. He has advised me to
> replace the flasher can with an electronic one, and this should
> apparently solve any problems.
> I'll let you know how it goes!
> Cheers
> Matt
bair @gmail.com wrote: > I'm replacing the front turn signals on my motorbike with LEDs. The > LED light is rated at 0.4w at 12 volts, and the globe it is replacing > is 21w. > When I connect the new LED light to the original wiring, the turn
> signals (on the dash, front LED and back globe) all flash too fast. I
> am wanting to slow these down and was hoping someone could provide
> some advice on what type of resistor I need to apply to the circuit to
> increase the resistance to the same as the original 21w globe.
> I'm not sure if I've provided enough information for this calculation,
> so if more is needed, please let me know.
Allot of people suggested using a resistor to increase the amount of current drawn by the circuit. You can do that, but it might be easier and cheaper to just use an 1156 bulb (or something similar) instead of the resistor. Just wire a bulb in "parallel" with the LEDs somewhere along the wire feeding each turn signal. You can wrap them in foil and hide them inside the headlight bucket or under the seat, wherever you can find a spot. OTOH, you could fabricate a new flasher module that doesn't depend upon the
load to determine the flash rate. You may be able to find something already
being manufactured that plugs in place of your stock module. Have you
checked?
-----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
"Anthony Fremont" <spam- @nowhere.com> wrote in message ...
> bair @gmail.com wrote: >> I'm replacing the front turn signals on my motorbike with LEDs. The >> LED light is rated at 0.4w at 12 volts, and the globe it is replacing >> is 21w. >> When I connect the new LED light to the original wiring, the turn
>> signals (on the dash, front LED and back globe) all flash too fast.
>> I
>> am wanting to slow these down and was hoping someone could provide
>> some advice on what type of resistor I need to apply to the circuit
>> to
>> increase the resistance to the same as the original 21w globe.
>> I'm not sure if I've provided enough information for this
>> calculation,
>> so if more is needed, please let me know.
> Allot of people suggested using a resistor to increase the amount of
> current drawn by the circuit. You can do that, but it might be easier
> and cheaper to just use an 1156 bulb (or something similar) instead of
> the resistor. Just wire a bulb in "parallel" with the LEDs somewhere
> along the wire feeding each turn signal. You can wrap them in foil
> and hide them inside the headlight bucket or under the seat, wherever
> you can find a spot.
> OTOH, you could fabricate a new flasher module that doesn't depend
> upon the load to determine the flash rate. You may be able to find
> something already being manufactured that plugs in place of your stock
> module. Have you checked?
Of course fabricating a flasher that does not depend on the load would be a contravention of the rules in most jurisdictions that require the flash rate to change to indicate the failure of a bulb. --
John G.
-----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
John G wrote: > "Anthony Fremont" <spam- @nowhere.com> wrote in message >> OTOH, you could fabricate a new flasher module that doesn't depend >> upon the load to determine the flash rate. You may be able to find >> something already being manufactured that plugs in place of your >> stock module. Have you checked? > Of course fabricating a flasher that does not depend on the load would
> be a contravention of the rules in most jurisdictions that require the
> flash rate to change to indicate the failure of a bulb.
I never knew that to be a requirement anywhere in the US. A couple of years back I did a little research on DOT regulations regarding turn signal flash rates, but I don't recall seeing anything indicating that a failed bulb should cause the remaining bulbs to flash faster. Only that bulbs should flash between 60 - 120 flashes per minute. Could you cite a reference? -----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
On 3 May 2007 22:13:05 -0700, bair @gmail.com wrote: >I'm replacing the front turn signals on my motorbike with LEDs. The >LED light is rated at 0.4w at 12 volts, and the globe it is replacing >is 21w. >When I connect the new LED light to the original wiring, the turn
>signals (on the dash, front LED and back globe) all flash too fast. I
>am wanting to slow these down and was hoping someone could provide
>some advice on what type of resistor I need to apply to the circuit to
>increase the resistance to the same as the original 21w globe.
>I'm not sure if I've provided enough information for this calculation,
>so if more is needed, please let me know.
>Thanks
>Matt
I have a bike and put leds in the front turn signals and tail light. You can just put power resistor in parallel with the LEDs to simulate the full load to the flasher. Cheap and dirty. My goal was to save power the alternator only puts out 10 amps on my
bike and 5 goes to the headlight, the rest supports the ignition and
running lights. Using LEDs cut about 2.5 amps load to 600 milliamps
total - turn and tail light.
The auto parts place wanted $17+ for the electronic flasher. I opened
the box and through the smoked plastic cover there was a large
electrolytic, small TO92 device, a few two wire parts like resistors
or diodes, and a large relay with very fine wire.
I built my own for ~$2. One bipolar transistor, one zener, one
mosfet, small electrolytic a few resistors - no relays.
Works like a champ and can switch between ~200 milliamps to 20 amps,
between 11 to 15 volts supply, with very little variation in rate. I
potted it in epoxy in a small plastic case.
By now you've probably solved your problem. But if you want to roll
your own I can post the schematic on the binary group or email it.
My design is for a two wire flasher - should work in any application.
My bike was wired for a two or three wire flasher. Two wire design
was fun because the flasher is essentially shorting out its own power
supply when the lamps are on.
--
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-----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
default wrote: > On 3 May 2007 22:13:05 -0700, bair @gmail.com wrote: > >I'm replacing the front turn signals on my motorbike with LEDs. The
> >LED light is rated at 0.4w at 12 volts, and the globe it is replacing
> >is 21w.
> >When I connect the new LED light to the original wiring, the turn
> >signals (on the dash, front LED and back globe) all flash too fast. I
> >am wanting to slow these down and was hoping someone could provide
> >some advice on what type of resistor I need to apply to the circuit to
> >increase the resistance to the same as the original 21w globe.
> >I'm not sure if I've provided enough information for this calculation,
> >so if more is needed, please let me know.
> >Thanks
> >Matt
> I have a bike and put leds in the front turn signals and tail light.
> You can just put power resistor in parallel with the LEDs to simulate
> the full load to the flasher. Cheap and dirty.
> My goal was to save power the alternator only puts out 10 amps on my
> bike and 5 goes to the headlight, the rest supports the ignition and
> running lights. Using LEDs cut about 2.5 amps load to 600 milliamps
> total - turn and tail light.
> The auto parts place wanted $17+ for the electronic flasher. I opened
> the box and through the smoked plastic cover there was a large
> electrolytic, small TO92 device, a few two wire parts like resistors
> or diodes, and a large relay with very fine wire.
> I built my own for ~$2. One bipolar transistor, one zener, one
> mosfet, small electrolytic a few resistors - no relays.
> Works like a champ and can switch between ~200 milliamps to 20 amps,
> between 11 to 15 volts supply, with very little variation in rate. I
> potted it in epoxy in a small plastic case.
> By now you've probably solved your problem. But if you want to roll
> your own I can post the schematic on the binary group or email it.
> My design is for a two wire flasher - should work in any application.
> My bike was wired for a two or three wire flasher. Two wire design
> was fun because the flasher is essentially shorting out its own power
> supply when the lamps are on.
> --
I would Like to see your flasher Circuit. could you mail it to
mrbgoogle(at)hotmail(dot)com
-----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
On 4 May 2007 08:18:59 -0700, Martin <mrbgoo @hotmail.com> wrote: >mrbgoogle(at)hotmail(dot)com
Done -- ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
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-----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
<bair @gmail.com> wrote in message ... > I'm replacing the front turn signals on my motorbike with LEDs. The > LED light is rated at 0.4w at 12 volts, and the globe it is replacing > is 21w. > When I connect the new LED light to the original wiring, the turn
> signals (on the dash, front LED and back globe) all flash too fast. I
> am wanting to slow these down and was hoping someone could provide
> some advice on what type of resistor I need to apply to the circuit to
> increase the resistance to the same as the original 21w globe.
A 21 W resistor! (That's 6.8 ohms at 25 Watts, wired in parallel).
The lamp is cheaper.
-----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
On Fri, 4 May 2007 04:57:21 -0500, "Anthony Fremont"
<spam- @nowhere.com> wrote: >John G wrote: >> "Anthony Fremont" <spam- @nowhere.com> wrote in message >>> OTOH, you could fabricate a new flasher module that doesn't depend
>>> upon the load to determine the flash rate. You may be able to
find
>>> something already being manufactured that plugs in place of your
>>> stock module. Have you checked?
>> Of course fabricating a flasher that does not depend on the load
would
>> be a contravention of the rules in most jurisdictions that require
the
>> flash rate to change to indicate the failure of a bulb.
>I never knew that to be a requirement anywhere in the US. A couple
of years
>back I did a little research on DOT regulations regarding turn signal
flash
>rates, but I don't recall seeing anything indicating that a failed
bulb
>should cause the remaining bulbs to flash faster. Only that bulbs
should
>flash between 60 - 120 flashes per minute. Could you cite a
reference?
There are various standards applying to vehicle turn flashers and lamps. The CEC catalog refers to the appropriate standards applying to each of their flasher products. SAE J590 appears to be the original flasher standard. http://www.cecindustries.com/pdfs/900-flasher.pdf A list of standards applying to lighting on passenger vehicles is here
http://calcoast-itl.com/services_standards.html so you can Google for
those which you think might apply.
-----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
On Sat, 05 May 2007 05:43:07 GMT, Ross Herbert <rherb @bigpond.net.au> wrote: >There are various standards applying to vehicle turn flashers and
>lamps. The CEC catalog refers to the appropriate standards applying to
>each of their flasher products. SAE J590 appears to be the original
>flasher standard.
>http://www.cecindustries.com/pdfs/900-flasher.pdf
I notice all the common automotive flashers they are selling meet the SAE 590 standard whether heavy duty, or led or whatever, including the one that is supposed to be able to flash one to twenty lamps. I'm guessing if you have 20 lamps on the same flasher and one burns
out, there will be no change in the flash rate. Although, it could
mean that if all the lamps burn out you'd be alerted, presumably the
small indicator lamp in the dash won't be enough to keep it toggling -
and some of those light during the off period of the turn signal.
The common thread on the product list is the 60 -120 flashes per
minute (no mention of on versus off period - but that may be in the
standard)
Scrolling down from the multi-led lamp flashers they show some fixed
load flashers that are supposed to alter the flash rate when a lamp
burns out - they also meet the 590 standard
Found it for $59; decided I didn't want it enough. Both of these meet the same SAE J590 standard - one is designed to
alert the operator of a lamp outage the other isn't. Lamp outage must
Not be a requirement for turn signal flashers.
EF43 20 Lamp 3 Terminal Electronic Flasher
* FMVSS 108 SAE J945, J590, and 1690 Class A
* Heavy Duty Design Rated for 100 hours continuous operation.
* 60-120 Flashes per minute
* Fits all Standard Round Sockets
* 11-15 volt, 45 Amp, 1 to 20 Lamp Capacity
EF34 Fixed Load Electronic Flasher Turn Signal/Hazard Warning
Flasher
* FMVSS 108 SAE J945, J590, and 1690 Class A
* 3 Terminal Double Flash Rate Design for Lamp Outage
* Flash Rate Electronically Timed
* Fits all Standard Sockets found in newer import cars & trucks
* 11-15 volt, Fixed Load 2 lamps for turn signal / 4 lamps for hazard
warning
--
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-----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
Ross Herbert wrote: > On Fri, 4 May 2007 04:57:21 -0500, "Anthony Fremont" > <spam- @nowhere.com> wrote: >> John G wrote:
>>> Of course fabricating a flasher that does not depend on the load
>>> would be a contravention of the rules in most jurisdictions that
>>> require the flash rate to change to indicate the failure of a bulb.
>> I never knew that to be a requirement anywhere in the US. A couple
>> of years back I did a little research on DOT regulations regarding
>> turn signal flash rates, but I don't recall seeing anything
>> indicating that a failed bulb should cause the remaining bulbs to
>> flash faster. Only that bulbs should flash between 60 - 120 flashes
>> per minute. Could you cite a reference?
> There are various standards applying to vehicle turn flashers and
> lamps. The CEC catalog refers to the appropriate standards applying to
> each of their flasher products. SAE J590 appears to be the original
> flasher standard.
> http://www.cecindustries.com/pdfs/900-flasher.pdf
> A list of standards applying to lighting on passenger vehicles is here
> http://calcoast-itl.com/services_standards.html so you can Google for
> those which you think might apply.
Thanks, after digging around some, I was able to find that FMVSS do aparently require some kind of turn signal "lamp outage" indication on at least some vehicles. Seems silly considering that there is apparently no warning required for failed brake lamps! Of course outage sensors aren't required on vehicles over 80" wide either, allot of common sense in that one too, huh? ;-) I had primarily been looking for flash-rate and duty-cycle information
before and didn't even think about that aspect of it. No biggy though, I
can deal with it if necessary. Automotive high side drivers are chock full
of handy features like that. :-)
-----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
On Sun, 6 May 2007 11:43:34 -0500, "Anthony Fremont" <spam- @nowhere.com> wrote: SNIP >> A list of standards applying to lighting on passenger vehicles is here >> http://calcoast-itl.com/services_standards.html so you can Google for >> those which you think might apply. >I had primarily been looking for flash-rate and duty-cycle
>information before and didn't even think about that aspect of it. No
>biggy though, I can deal with it if necessary. Automotive high side
>drivers are chock full of handy features like that. :-)
The flasher specs would most likely be in SAE J823 Flasher test. -----------------------------------------------Reply-----------------------------------------------
On May 4, 6:11 pm, default <defa @defaulter.net> wrote: > On 4 May 2007 08:18:59 -0700, Martin <mrbgoo @hotmail.com> wrote: > >mrbgoogle(at)hotmail(dot)com
> Done
> --
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----http://www.newsfeeds.comThe #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Could you send it once more, hotmail deleted all my messages because I had not logged in recently enough.
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